( Bapak ) What are we going to discuss now?

( Sjafrudin Achmad ) ( interpreter ): Their questions.

( Bapak ) Oh, their questions. From the sections?

( John G. Bennett ) First of all would you say ( to Bapak ) that I told them that this suggestion about chairmen is not something for which Bapak is responsible, but is a proposal I made in order to make the work convenient, and therefore we can't come back and ask Bapak what we ought to do. But at the same time we would like guidance from Bapak as to the way in which this should be done.

( Bapak) Yes.

( JGB ) What I had thought was that everyone could meet in the morning at half past nine with the chairman of that section - each day a different section - and then find out on what questions they wish guidance from Bapak. Then, when they come at eleven o'clock, the chairman could say to Bapak: 'Can you give us guidance on such-and-such questions?' Then in his talk Bapak will say what is necessary. Is that right?

( Bapak ) Yes, yes. That's right.

( JGB ) Then, if Bapak says yes, perhaps we could say, that that procedure is in order. ( To Paul Anderson ) The question you raised - perhaps you'd like to speak of it now?

( Paul Anderson ) Which question is that?

( JGB ) The question you raised about the material resources connected with anything that has to be undertaken.

( PA ) Oh, yes. In looking over the projects it has occurred to me that at the back of all the various considerations there is a financial specter - let's put it that way - or a financial consideration, which makes what we want to do possible, or which we must bear in mind when considering everything we hope to accomplish. So, in a certain sense, all our deliberations will be colored by that consideration.

( Bapak ) Of course that is important in the organization.

( JGB:To PA ) And you also said that it might be necessary.., there would have to be a new approach to the question. Would you say what you mean about that?

( PA ) Yes. Well, I had asked the question whether, in groups elsewhere, there had come a period when the ordinary methods of financing their activities had exhausted themselves and they were now faced with a different approach to the problem of financial resources. I don't know about any other place, but I know that has happened in the States, and we are either at that point, where we will have to raise money in somewhat different ways from how we have done before, and by reaching in different directions. It is not so much the sources, but the ways that are important here. 239

( Bapak ) Yes. Those ways can be considered in the various places -of course they are all different. But the ways to raise ( the money ) is something you can all discuss.

However, Bapak feels that rather than doing something like Leger des Heils ( Du. ) and such ( movements ) do, relying only on contributions - Bapak doesn't agree with that - it would be better to try and earn money in all these various places by setting up an enterprise. The capital for the enterprise can be obtained from all the members; not from outsiders but from our own members.

The committees should give the lead, so that the members can work, can do something that will bear fruit for their lives. Then each of them can become aware of how a person works. In that way we shall show that, besides working like other people, we in Subud do not neglect to worship God. So it can truly be said that Subud does not attach importance only to the life after death, but that we also consider our life in this world to be important.

( Anwar Zakir ) But would this not conflict with the state Subud is now in, in America, as a non-profit corporation?

( JGB ) No.

( PA ) No. Legally, a non-profit corporation can engage in any business so long as it doesn't return any profit to itself in other words, it distributes it to all the members or to some organization which they're interested in.

( JGB ) Were there any other things about the duties of the chairmen on which you wanted guidance from Bapak? ( To Sir Victor Goddard ) I think, actually, we should ask Bapak about what you had in mind.

( Sir Victor Goddard ) What I said was that it seems to us that there are two approaches that can be made, and one of them, to me and to many people, seems more like the Subud spirit. That is the way of infiltrating, of gradually seeping into organizations: into schools, into hospitals and nursing homes, old people's homes; gradually getting Subud people, one by one, into these organizations and hoping that the effect of those people on the organizations, and on the people they meet, will gradually be to make the whole of that thing become a Subud creation. That isn't because it's easier - it is easier, I think, a little bit - but because it seems to be more natural to the system. And that is why I personally favor that, unless I am guided to think otherwise.

( JGB ) You mean - talking about starting a school - rather than starting a Subud school, to try little by little to turn existing schools towards Subud?

( SVG ) I know there are many teachers now in England who are already having an effect on their colleagues and on their pupils; they are finding that they are better teachers. And this will be observed, and gradually some schools will become Subud schools. Whereas if we were to start in this country - with the state schools competing with us - to make a new organization, we should find it difficult to get all the Subud teachers to come together to one place and start again. All those difficulties would be very much greater. I would like to know if we could be guided on that idea.

( Bapak ) Indeed, that is the way. If we start by setting up a Subud school, it may be quite difficult. First, because ( materially ) we are not yet strong enough, and second, because we haven't prepared everything that's ( needed ), especially regarding the teachers. As for the second way, Bapak agrees with that. The Subud teachers who are in these various schools, it is not that their pupils will be more motivated but because their teachers are in Subud - meaning that they already do the latihan - the pupils will spontaneously be influenced. At the very least they will come closer to their souls, and will be awakened to an awareness of God.

But once Subud has been able to set up schools of its own, so that from the principal down to the assistants all are in Subud, the curriculum, what is taught in these schools, will be no different from what is taught in other schools. So there will be no lessons about Subud. No, none. The lessons will follow the normal curriculum. So, when a school is established by Subud, and all the teachers are Subud members, they will be able to have a greater influence on the children's souls, and they will be able to guide the children into the directions that are right for them. For if the teachers are our members, who have done the latihan for a long time, they will be able to test about their pupils' talents, so they can be guided into the right field of study.

In the medical field - supposing we get enough money to also establish hospitals - the hospital will not only employ Subud members, but also the appropriate professionals; for instance, qualified doctors with diplomas. But it would be best if, besides having diplomas, these doctors are also Subud members; then besides having the ordinary kind of knowledge, they will also be able to receive from within. In this way they will be able to care for and heal their patients, who will not then leave the hospital unaware of the spiritual aspects of their healing, only to keep returning to the hospital again and again. Because their healing was accompanied by the latihan, they will become self-sufficient and gain an understanding for themselves about their illness. Eventually these people will no longer have to go to the doctor every time they are sick. They will be capable of healing themselves. So the aim of these hospitals will be to enable people to correct themselves and cure themselves through self-confidence ( based on ) their faith in God - by strengthening them so that they believe in and worship God.

( Question ) I would like to know about the application of the Subud transformation to a commercial enterprise. The application - in the thing we have spoken of, the Subud transformation in a school and in a hospital - the application of this transformation of Subud in a commercial enterprise.

( JGB ) Which already exists, you mean? One which already exists, or the sort Bapak spoke about?

( Question cont. ): What Bapak spoke about: created by Subud.

( Bapak ) Yes, that's the same; it's also like that. The effort of the committee to make money is not just to meet the needs of Subud, it is also to give an example to the members; to demonstrate that besides worshipping God we are also good at making money and good at finding ways to make our lives happy. In fact it would be really surprising and really extraordinary if Subud members - especially those who have been doing latihan for a long time - couldn't find work or a field of activity to provide for themselves properly. So in fact, long-time Subud members are able to understand 'where I must go and how I must work for my well-being and to provide for my life.' That is how the committee - the members of the committee - should work, so as to demonstrate to the members that in our worship of God we are also guided in finding the right way of dealing with our life in this world, a way that can provide us with a livelihood.

( JGB ) I think that we are asking Bapak questions that really belong to the congress. I don't know whether there are any others that you wanted to ask about how the practical side of your work is to be done?

( There is a request to circulate a transcript of this meeting. )

( JGB ) The thing I would like to ask Bapak - we spoke about it before he came - was whether I'm right in understanding that Bapak will give general indications from the spiritual side but when it comes to the practical, administrative arrangements - how something is to be done, for one side or another - that Bapak wishes to leave to the sections, to the committees and so on. Is that right?

( Bapak ) Yes.

( JGB translating a question spoken in French ): What Dr. Ruzo said was that inevitably the question of the relationship of Subud with the Roman Catholic Church will arise. And he thinks that now, while Subud is very small, it will not be a question, but he expects a big expansion in South America very quickly; and as soon as Subud begins to be important and people come to it in big numbers, then the Roman Catholic Church will take a position.

And, in some cases, apparently quite without reason, it has condemned such movements as the YMCA, and said that Catholics shouldn't belong to this. Dr. 1Kuzo feels that the occasion of an international congress like this would be a right one for making a statement about what Subud is, which could always be given to people, so they would know that this was agreed by the international congress of Subud, as Bapak wishes it to be stated. So then it could be seen that this is not something which can be against the faith of people who belong to the Church.

( Bapak ) Yes. Indeed, looked at from the mind's point of view, it is not only difficult but it is a journey that always passes through thorns and unpleasant experiences -just as it was in the past. It happens not only in the transition from one religion to another but even with a transition within the same religion. Between the Roman Catholics and Protestants there was a lot of conflict and many casualties. It is indeed very difficult to break down a belief. It is so not only in Christianity, but even in Islam; even now in Indonesia, many Muslims regard Subud as some kind of heresy, meaning that it is against religion. They certainly do that.

That is why we should not feel any need for hurry, or hope for speedy results. In order for things to go well for us we need not use our wills for any of this, or use any force. People will accept this of their own accord, and of their own accord they will turn to us. For this is how it is: this Subud, this latihan, arises because of the power of God, and that power causes an inner awakening of the human self, so that people's hearts will be bound - whether they want to or not - to turn towards God, as God has willed they should do.

Bapak can illustrate this with what happens here. People who know nothing at all about Islam, and who have never uttered the name of Allah, once they have received the latihan for some time spontaneously say, 'Allah, Allah, Allah.' They have not been forced to make that declaration, nor have they been influenced by propaganda; it is genuine and comes from their heart, which has been awakened by the power of God within them.

That's how it is. So the means whereby the general public is attracted to Subud and joins it is neither propaganda nor influence, but is the will of God within the human self. As a result we open people a few at a time. Whether they decide to join Subud or not is something that will awaken spontaneously from their soul.

There is more evidence, as in Ceylon. In Ceylon they have Buddhism, Christianity, Islam and Hinduism. Before they joined Subud, between the Buddhists and Hindus it was like this ( gesture ); between Muslims and Christians, like this ( gesture ); between Christians and Hindus, like this ( gesture ). In short, they were killing each other. But after they joined Subud they are like this ( gesture ), because they are aware that God is One and human beings are one.

As for the religions, they are ways to get close to the power of God. They are ways. With a way one cannot be sure whether it is right or not; whether it will produce results or not. Now there is Subud, and through Subud we are close to God's power. So it becomes more real: if they are Christians, they will be true Christians; if they are Muslims, they will be true Muslims. For the truth of Islam, the truth of Christianity, the truth of Buddhism is that there is one God for all humankind - not different Gods. That's how it is. So our means ( to attract people ) is only from God, not from human beings. That is why - as Bapak often says - we really have no need for propaganda, for this is the will of God.

Now let us look at the evidence. Maybe up to now it has never happened that a way or a religion has spread in such a short time as Subud. In the course of barely two and a half years, Subud has spread to almost every corner of the world, even though it has not yet reached the whole of humankind. So if we add another hundred years - to make it a hundred and two and a half years -maybe by then half the world will be truly Subud. If we compare it with Christianity, that took three hundred years to spread over the earth; and Islam also took around three hundred years. So if Subud can do it in a hundred and two and a half years it will have been faster than Christianity or Islam. Yes.

( JGB ) Are there any other things that we want to ask Bapak about before we begin?

( Eugenio Pastor Freixa ) Well, I have a little scruple. Should I be chairman when my attitude, and the attitude of the people in Spain, is negative towards the external organization and the commercial enterprises and so on, as we consider for the present moment that we are too young in this movement, in this development, and therefore everything that might be done in the West may probably be due to the wish of the mind and not really of the higher self?.

( JGB ) Are you speaking for yourself in Spain or for everywhere?

( EPF ) For everywhere. Not organization. We feel that the organization must be only what is indispensable to allow the spiritual action to grow, but no more.

( JGB ) And not to have any enterprises, any undertakings?

( EPF ) We think so.

( Bapak ) Yes, Bapak understands ( what you mean ). Here is how it is; Bapak will explain this a bit further.

Why is it that educated people do not really want to believe in religion - whether it is Christianity, Islam or the others? Because so far the religions have not yet been able to demonstrate that the worship of God can provide a way for people to live happily in this world. Whereas in Subud, if people are really able to receive what can be found in the latihan, they will be able to receive guidance from God as to how to make their lives secure, and provide a safe and happy life for their families. If we can demonstrate that - if many of us can do that - then people will join Subud in order to find indications to guide their lives. That is clear. So, for people today, they must see the benefit first, clearly, in front of their eyes. There it is ( gesture ) - it's true! So, in Subud we will later be able to show people an example of how they can receive a benefit for themselves; only then will they worship God. That is really how it will be. That is why Bapak is now arranging that in Subud there should be committees and an organization - and that we should work - so we can show to the world and to human society that besides worshipping God, we are still able to work in order to earn money and truly obtain our livelihoods.

( Question ) Would you please ask Bapak if doing these commercial enterprises or whatever you want to call it, is this also a proof to encourage the business people - who do not have the moral standard they had... ( inaudible ) ago - to see that we can have prosperous businesses whilst being clean and being proper. Because, especially today, the business people need this encouragement as they are nearly all crooks. I hate to put it bluntly, but the... ( inaudible ) has gone very far today.

( Bapak ) Yes. Bapak will give an example: a communist. A communist does not believe in God, only in matter; yet if a communist is willing to join Subud, he or she will stop being a communist. Their communism will disappear, or they will turn into communists who believe in God. So it is clear that Subud will change not only people's behavior but what is in their souls. So, whether they want to or not, they will end up that way, because this is the power and the will of God. This has already happened. In Indonesia there was a communist; he did not believe. 'Oh, I don't believe there's a God. There is no God - that's all nonsense!'

'The point is,' Bapak said, 'are you willing to join Subud or not? You can just try it.'

I'm willing to try it, but.., oh, I'm sure I won't believe.' 'That's all right, just start, and try it for three nights.'

He agreed and Bapak opened him. He came for three nights. 'How was it?'

'Ah, now I believe there is a God.' ( Laughter )

( Question ) May I ask Bapak a question? I wonder if Bapak would consider changing the order of things tomorrow morning and have Bapak open this congress with what was said here. This is a general feeling.

( JGB ) What feeling?

( Question cont. ): This feeling of why we are here and what we are attempting to do now. And it would seem to me that because of this - this not looking ahead but looking only at the moment now, from our heads - that if Bapak would talk, even .just briefly, about what he would like to see come out of this congress, even though its completion isn't possible now, at least it could be a beginning. And I'm quite aware from what has been happening in the United States - things that six months ago we thought were absolutely impossible are now happening - that they are happening because of two things: the need for them, and along with the need, coming the means.

And this I feel too, and I also wanted to say: that all of us chairmen must be mindful of this, if we have had these experiences. And if Bapak would consider this, then, when we go about our work, perhaps as a result of it we will approach it with a considerably different attitude.

( Bapak ) In the introductory words tomorrow... Finished? ( Laughter )

( JGB ) Thank you very much, Bapak.